trying to lose weight through weight lifting, low carb diets, lots of protein, and calorie restriction? of course i thought of you, my friends here on 30badsucks.
trying to lose weight through weight lifting, low carb diets, lots of protein, and calorie restriction? of course i thought of you, my friends here on 30badsucks.
I’m not sure what side of the fence I’m on. Both paleo type diets and low fat diets with a lot of fruit or starch have some appealing elements. There are folks on here who vouch for both, providing fascinating studies and interesting anecdotal evidence, which unfortunately hasn’t helped me make any kind of choice. I also feel that bias is a problem, where people may be ignoring problems they are having on their diet just so they can propagate it to others.
It seems like some people function best on high carb and some on high fat. I have no idea which of those I am. I thought it might be fun to do a trial run of each of these diets for a short period like a month each. For example, spend a month following a high carb raw vegan diet – possibly including cooked starches – followed by a low carb paleo or primal approach. This would open me up to new ways of eating and help me figure out what works best for me. I also don’t have an agenda; I’m genuinely curious about how these diets could work for me in terms of energy, mood, focus, etc.
I thought it might be a good idea to report back and add another opinion to the melting pot.
I think a month is long enough to work through any “detox” or “carb flu”. Also, does anyone has recommendations to make both a fair
trial? I know things like dates and dairy are grey areas that can give people problems. I’d also like to make sure I’m doing them right!
a recent example of heinous crap going on at 30bad…
Should younger people do 80/10/10 any different?
“Hey guys, I’m 16. Is there any differences that I would need to do in 80/10/10? Like is it possible that I’d need more fat or anything? Thanks :)”
Well, last night I made a crack about the Rivendell elvin dinner scene in The Hobbit being like going to an 801010 picnic with vain hippies. It reminded me of Doug Graham and how once upon a time I believed his gospel (even spent money on his fucking books…) and made myself miserable trying to follow it “100%”. I googled “doug graham exposed as fraud” on a whim which led me to this site.
I could hardly believe that Harley is still active and an even bigger douche than he used to be. I was dismayed to see Freelee is still with him… I had hoped she would have woken up and gotten far, far away by now.
I met both Harley & Leanne in person around 2007 I think it was, just the one time. This was before they were together. I thought it would interest people to share impressions of them as I get the idea not many people here have met them in person, just interacted with them online.
At the time I was a regular poster on the Australian forum, Raw Pleasure. Harley used to be a regular poster there too, as was Freelee, which is how they met, I believed.
At the Mind Body Spirit festival in Sydney, Raw Pleasure had a stall and a bunch of us volunteered time to work on it, Harley and Freelee included.
I never had any personal dustups with Harley, apart from telling him to get stuffed a couple of times (he tried to tell women how to dress and groom… which is patronising in the extreme… kept telling us not to wear makeup etc which is why I chose such a heavily made up pic for my avatar… sucked in “bro”). But nothing major. . I didn’t stick around on the forums long enough for that, though if I had I’m sure I would’ve served him a good go. Mostly I ignored him. But on account of his abusive, manipulative and egomaniacal behaviour I have always recalled him with disgust and contempt.
I saw on one of the many links I read here last night that Harley claims to be 6ft. Well, I am 5’3″ and that day I was wearing 2″ heels and he was shorter than me. I know it’s well-established he’s a pathological liar, but I thought some might smirk at that.
(edited to add: it seems I’ve recollected this incorrectly as other consensus has he’s around 5’10″ – 11″. The memory of looking down on him was strong; it’s likely he was sitting and/or hunching. My SINCEREST apologies for this terribly slanderous accusation against you, Harley!)
In person he was twitchy, edgy and obviously awkward. He kept asking me questions and then chuckling in this weird, uncomfortable way like he didn’t know how to respond to the information or sustain a conversation. It was very clear to me he was socially inept and didn’t know how to deal with a strong personality that looked at him with disinterest. Straight up, I work in the adult entertainment biz. Harley was fascinated by the amount of money I made, how much rent I paid, where I lived, etc and asked questions about it. Even back then he was going on and on about his ‘pure’ lifestyle, living off the earth (the dole), rorting the system, playing on people’s hospitality, no need for money bullshit, etc etc etc. Well for someone who doesn’t care about money he sure was interested in mine. I thought for a guy who plays so tough and assertive online that he sure was a weaselly little type. And that’s mainly what I remember: a weaselly little guy who stood around grinning for no reason, like a little gnome. He also had zero charm and charisma and had absolutely no idea how to talk or interact with people. It was dreadful. The point of the stall was to get people interested in raw food but Harley’s approach with them sent them all scurrying away. He was overly aggressive and in their faces but was unable to present the information in a simple, captivating or intriguing way. He came off as a weirdo and they responded to him as such… with wide eyes, awkward glances and backing away as quick as they could. I remember when it was just him and me on the stall feeling so frustrated… because of course there was no way he could let a woman talk over him so anytime I was talking to people about what was actually important, he’d shove a recipe book in their faces and be like ‘see, a raw hamburger’ and people would just get confused… then he’d take over and they’d walk away. A bunch of people thought he was great back then cos of the way he presented himself on the forums (as 100% 811 elite athlete), so people were excited to meet him… I just remember being so underwhelmed and like… who is this little weasel… he is trying too hard… but being polite for the sake of others.
It was because of people like Harley that I became disillusioned with raw community (not raw eating) and shifted out of it. It became obvious to me so quickly that it functioned as a cult, that people came to it claiming to want better health but really just wanting to be thin, that multiple people were masking eating disorders under the diet. Myself included. I have always struggled with eating disordered behaviour and am extremely analytical and observant so while I got sucked in for a while (which I think is easy for any one to do because of the cult-like qualities of how these people operate), I woke up pretty soon and distanced myself from the community. But for all my insecurities and vulnerabilities, I am a really strong, tough woman and what I observed in droves were very vulnerable women with major self-esteem issues becoming prey to men like Harley. Before being with Freelee, Harley “seduced” (manipulated) at least one other woman on the forum, a happily married woman, who was desperately insecure, majorly eating disordered and obsessed with trying to be the perfect 811 woman at Harley’s beckoning and insistence. They had an affair before she had a major wake up call and after that she became a lot more critically aware of Harley’s bullshit and no longer let it pass… thank god. This woman also went on to have a major health crisis on 811 and started eating cooked food again, which got her better. Though last I heard she was in pursuit of perfect 811ism again… but that is about her own pathological behaviour and need to be so in control.
Both hers and Harley’s behaviour, to my observation, speak of major imbalance and deficiency. The more extreme they got with their diet, the more whacky and irrational and stupid they seemed to get (this woman was converting her cat to a vegan diet last time we spoke, which horrified me). This woman reminds me of Freelee in a lot of ways…
… when I left the forums, Freelee and Harley were a new couple and it was with the sense of watching a train wreck that I observed their dynamics. I met Freelee at the stall also, the next day, when it was just her and me. A quiet, insecure, shy, awkward woman… with obvious incredible insecurity and major self-esteem problems. Ripe for the taking by someone like Harley. The douche knows his targets and he pursues them. Freelee was sweet back in those days. I thought she was a twit, but a sweet one and certainly a well-intentioned one. She didn’t claim to be a guru or an expert. She was a student back then and just wanted raw so she could be super thin and healthy and fit and wanted to go about it the right way. Once Harley sunk his claws in…
… I actually distinctly remember someone… perhaps even Gosia (not sure tho)… outright saying Harley was emotionally abusing her on the forum. And I agree. And I think this is the key behind to why she is still with him and parroting his ludicrous schtick. I know it’s hard from the outside to understand how an abusive relationship functions and when we see victims behaving badly to comprehend that they are under the thumb of the person abusing them, but I do believe this is what’s going on with Freelee. At the time it was so obvious Harley was puppeteering her and that she was vulnerable and receptive to it… that she saw his attention as validation. He was able to swoop in and take control of her life and manipulate her into the woman he wanted… she didn’t have a strong enough personality or sense of identity to resist and he could just lump her into being (or at least presenting) what he thought was ideal… a passive, receptive dummy who worships him and does what he says. Honestly, I feel terrible for her. I realise that she’s said and done some shitty things and I’m not excusing them, but I just remember her vulnerable, frail, meek presence and I cringe to think of how Harley has manipulated her. Never underestimate the devastation that psychological abuse can yield.
Again, it’s that cult quality coming back in. And this is what makes me so nervous, more than anything else, about Harley & his behaviour… that long term the people most vulnerable to it are young women (Freelee was 21 at the time I think…) and teenage girls who want to be thin as thin can be… who are made so impressionable and insecure by the world around them, just waiting for someone like Harley and the irresponsible and dangerous junk he is cramming into their heads… his psychotic obsession with thinness, like it is the one worthwhile quality to judge people by, is terrifying and the impact it could have on women & girls… that it probably is having and I think has already had on Freelee… is chilling.
All I can say in conclusion is I am so glad a lot of people recognise this about Harley & Graham & the others and are speaking out.
so, i never even bothered to pick up “801010″ because the first i’d ever heard of it was from mr. durianrider on youtube (years ago now!). anyway, i figured it was some crazy diet where you were supposed to absolutely stuff yourself with dates and bananas, and eat shit tons of calories, and walk around like a bloated ape all day… yea, no interest!
anyway, i was listening to some interview with mr china study, and he mentioned that 801010 was the ideal ratio blah blah blah… so i decided to download the book… i skimmed over the whole thing, and have watched most all of dough graham’s youtube vids, and NOWHERE have i heard him even HINT that you should stuff yourself beyond capacity… graham says “eat until you are full, and no further” and “eat as many calories as you are supposed to eat” (eg. women ~1800, men ~2200 – or whatever)… NO MENTION OF THIS 3000, 5000, 1000282938 calories that harley speaks of!!!!
anyway, is harley just the world’s biggest troll or what?!?! if not from his lord and savior douglas graham, then where does he get these retarded ideas?!? half the things he preaches are complete contradictions of graham/”801010″!!!
A former member* of 30Bad was given the advice, by a very dedicated 30Bad-member, to embark on prostitution to finance the 80/10/10 lifestyle. This has lead to a bit of confusion whether or not Freelee is condoning such a recommendation given by one of her fellow 80/10/10 dieters.
Freelee, please clarify:
Do you agree with the advice – given by a fellow 80/10/10 – that prostitution is an excellent way to finance the diet?
(Stacy Pickhardt, if you in any shape or form feel offended by this entry please let me know and I’ll remove it.)
Anyone have insight, or done any research into why 801010 makes people so thirsty? Fruit has a high water content, but it seems everyone experiences a need to consume huge quantities of water. Maybe to help prevent high blood sugar, or aid the kidneys?
I’m really desperate guys.
I’ve been doing (correctly) the 811 diet for 2 months.
First and a half month would be ok I guess. I felt pure because I was eating far more fresh fruit and vegetables. Then I joined 30bad and told me 1700 calories for weight loss is too little and I should eat up to 2500 kcal no matter how much I exercise. I eventually upped them and I experienced some horrible symptoms such as bloating and feeling tired. It could be detox as they said but why didn’t I experience it when I first went 811? I stopped eating 811 after I gained 7 lbs.
I immediately started eating nuts like walnuts and almonds and I even ate chicken and eggs and dairy. I didn’t feel guilty at all. But I have binge eating episodes every single day after I stopped this diet. I had lost 65 pounds (minus 7) and now I feel like I’m losing the game.
I have never done 100% raw but I was 70-90 % raw depends on the fruit and veggies I had available. Cooked food would be rice,potatoes,pasta and bread. Very limited amounts though. I thought I should let you know about this.
I still believe that fresh fruit and veggies are the best foods and with veganism I learnt that I have to respect animals. I refuse to wear make up products that were tested on animals and wear leather and fur. I never wore fur but now I’m aware of it.
How to go back to a balanced diet? I’m not asking about how to get back to 1700 cals but how to get back to balanced meals. I’m so confused and I have stressed my body so much. I think I’m losing the battle and I worked so hard to lose those 65-7 pounds. I still have to lose 20 kg (44 pounds) and I don’t feel as inspired as I used to be.
That’s how I used to be a year ago and now:
I have posted this on the McDougall Forum. I do not expect warm welcome. Some are already expressing judgment, but others are definitely being more considerate. I’d leave the link, but if you look up my same user name on that site you should be able to see everything I’ve written.
The story I wrote is NOT complete, pretty basic, and long enough for now. As a note, there has been some confusion about ‘tooth errosion’ being mine (no I can’t spell :) It was not mine, it is the problem of my youngest child. Noy sure which category to post in… Here is a copy of the post
I intend to get into the nitty gritty details later. I do not have unlimited time on my hands to write EVERYTHING here. There will be typos. I want to, and I will try to, help anyone who asks, but I am a mother of four. I home school part time, run a small online etsy shop, maintain a home (well I TRY), and am constantly searching out the healthiest lifestyle I can for me and mine.
I found McDougall after reading the China Study. I was inspired by the 5% or less of calories should be from animal science for good health and figured I would go all of the way. I agreed with Mr Campbell that the foods we eat should not be refined. I began making changes. I weighed about 150, since my third pregnancy and wanted to at least loose 5 more pounds. I am 5’7″ and real goal of weighing 128 is a real possibility and is always lurking in my mind. I had my cholesterol levels checked yearly. What I had been doing was already working, but following the McDougall diet was working too, and faster. It was great, or so I thought. It’s been about three years now being strict about eating only veggies, fruits and unrefined grains, with the occassional monthly pancake day where we allowed real maple syrup. (Yes that is a refined item folks) We also enjoyed birthday cakes, and my husband took the kids out for ice cream or doughnut rewards. I eventually pushed him into sticking more to the doughnuts because they at least weren’t full of milk. He began bringing them to share with me too. I admit that I also had a chocolate stash that I tried to avoid. I cooked everything with out oil, I canned the smartbalance omega3 butter. My home was a clean safe have for healthy food. I even ditched the peanut butter since it tends to be full of aflatoxins and McDougall says he really doesn’t like the stuff. I kept hearing him play in my head over and over that we ALL that we need from our plant food. We don’t need vitamins expect vitamin B12, and even if we eat the same thing over and over like tribes in Southern America we’ll be fine! I believed and trusted him… but I was not fine.
If you are still loosing weight following his plan, keep doing it. If, however, you have hit a road bloc, are finding yourself secretly binging on anything at times, you’re moody, are easily disturbed during sleep, have skin tone changes, decreases in stamina, have difficulty thinking straight sometimes, slurred speech, having symptoms of preterm delivery, have difficulty bonding or making eye contact with your new infant, have given birth to a child that just won’t sleep or needs to nurse constantly, your children have erroding tooth enamel, are hyper active, or even if you can’t seem to loose that last five pounds, do I dare even mention Candida here… listen up. (I am very concerned for young mamas especially)
I have had ALL of these things and MORE, and I attribute it to strict adherence to this diet. Event though I would fill up to near bursting on veggies potatoes and rice after my salads and fruit and daily oatmeal I always had the muchies. Munchies are a sign that your body needs something. Give it that right something and the cravings will go away.. and not just for an hour. I was so desperate to figure out what I was missing I looked into raw foodism for nutriet increases and to see if I could do it. (I’m not against coked foods, I was just problem solving). Raw vegan food has no real grains or beans (ouch) and A LOT of nuts instead (double ouch). Mcdougall had put a heathly fear of nuts into my head.
I dicided to look into it more. McDougall’s plan is considered by many to be an 80 10 10 plan. That’s 80 carbs 10 Protien and 10 Fat. Another group doing this, but raw has a high failure rate, so I guessed that the difference was the starches that McDougall is so fond of. (I liked them too…) Most raw food communities are not 80 10 10. They eat many nuts and don’t seem to gain weight. I looked for and easily came across studies that TRIED to get people to gain seven predicted pounds by ADDING nuts to their diets. No one did, despite the high compliance rates. If I remember right they gained half a pound on average… I bet they felt REALLY full too.
Well, I didn’t want to gain half a pound, but I was miserable and had to try SOMETHING. I decided to forgo some of the starches and trade all of them out for a day for as many nuts as I liked. I felt full. I actually turned down treats offered me without any inner longing. I tried it the next day…. this time with Lara Bars. I ate two and I was as satisfied and if I had snuck in five packages of Honey Oat Granola Bar! I looked at the labels in shock. The calories per package were about the same. One is of course based on nuts and dried fruits, the other on the beloved and trusted whole grain oats (yes I know the oats are dry and tha is has honey aka sugar, but they are pretty benign otherwise). My point is nuts are FILLING, and they stopped my CRAVINGS. (I know you see the word ‘raving’ in craving…. tere is a reason why). There was more though… A LOT more, emotionally…within that very day and since continuing this way I have been able to maintain an inner calm. My children are calmer with with more nuts in their diets too! I needed FAT…. it has been about a week now eating as many nuts as I want while cutting out the grains, potatoes, and beans, supplementing with fish oil and my skin is actually getting better too.
For those of you wondering, I haven’t gain an ounce, in fact I seemed to have dropped a little. My belly isn’t bloated from over stuffing on grain. (Should I even mention that the thin white film that has been on my toungue and could never be scrapped off for over a year now is GONE) This goes way BEYOND weight maintenance or cholesterol goals…. My body is HEALING! My wrinkled skin, my mental clarity, my hormonal balance… ‘the works’. I am so THANKFUL to be shown a way out of the dogmatic McDougall ‘Beware of Fat’ trap! (You know he doesn’t demonize only oil, but highly fatted whole foods too.) I just wish I had known sooner, before I or my children were harmed by this. (Again, if you’re overweight, not eating fat is a pretty good idea… go at least whole food fats only… nuts, avacado,…dare I say up to 3 oz of fish every other day on this site for the EFAs. I suppose algae might be more appealing ;)
I could go on, but demands of family are making it hard to complete this. I can drum up links to studies if anyone really needs them, but you can generally use google with the right mix of words to find them. Many are on pubmed. More importantly my body feel younger and more capable and it’s only been a week. I can tell there is a longer recovery here. Will I ever go back to starches? Well yes I suppose I will, but I will limit them. Am I gorging on fish? No, I’d rather not. Eating meat is still rather unapealling, but I am mostly interested in health here. I have been taking fish oil and tons onf walnuts in home made Lara Bars. I am SURE my children have been suffering too (I have been very strict at home… I want only the BEST for MY kids). I am defeated here and as long as it not over sugar I simply WON’T refuse them. I can’t… I’m crushed at thinking I may have harmed them! I hope to prevent this from happening to ANYONE else. Please feel my love for you when you read this. I may not have met you yet, but truly I care.
So HOW MUCH FAT DO YOU NEED? Joel Fuhrman has a great video on this on You Tube. 10% is as low as you can go without causing major damage, but whay risk it. 15% is as low as anyone should ever really recommend in my opinion now and Joel goes as far as to say the range is 15-40%, depends on the individual…. NO OVERT FATS…. that is the key. AND KIDS NEED AS MUCH AS THEY CRAVE. (Often even up to 50%) This can go bad if combined with sugars, so keep them seperate and doubt you’ll have issues. (Better yet get rid of refined teeth loving sugars)
A last note, a little nitty gritty on EFA’s. PLEASE GET ENOUGH (1Gram of DHA twice that of EPA. an 1:1 ratio of Omega 6 to 3 is best 4:1 at worst. Start slow, it acts as a natural blood thinner. Beware of horomone inducing sources of EFA’s like flax. You might be OK with it, but brush up on the good AND bad of lignans… companies are pushing mostly the good so that part is easy to spot.)
I felt it better to just respond to the EFA article that McDougall wrote:
(*my comments in parenthesis as seen here with an asteriks. McDougall’s comments in parenthesis do not start with the *)
Deficiency of EFA in experimental animals causes lesions mainly attributable to faulty cellular membranes, such as sudden failure of growth, scaliness of the skin, increased water loss by a change of skin permeability, impaired fertility, kidney abnormalities, increased susceptibility to infection, and weaknesses in the cardiovascular system (Since following Mcdougall’s slanted advice on EFA’s I AND my newborn have suffered through ALL of these symptoms. He goes on)….EFA deficiency does not occur in people following low-fat diets, because these diets are high in vegetable foods, rich in EFA.
McDougall then goes on to quote:
Feeding diets containing as little as 0.1 to 0.5% of the calories as linoleic acid is sufficient to correct all signs of essential fatty acid deficiency. However, for optimal health higher intakes are recommended. Various factors affect the dietary requirement of EFA. Animal experiments and epidemiological studies lead to a recommendation that the intake of w-6 linoleic acid should be decreased to as low as 2-4 % of the calories and that of w-3 fats be increased to levels higher than w-6 linoleic acid for the prevention of chronic diseases prevailing in the industrialized countries (Proc Soc Exp Biol Med 200:174, 1992).
(*My studies have indicated that Enfamil added dha and aa in the amounts of 1.25% with a ratio of 1:2 at the time of their clinlical studies on brain development on infants. This is equal to about 1 gram of DHA per day. Aa can be developed from linoleic acid. They found intellegence tests highes in the dha:ara group. The amounts they decided to put in the formula were based on the amounts of these EFA’s in American breastmilk. For those who live by the sea in small communities like the Tismane the amounts of these EFA’s occur 4x’s that level. Did I mention that children breastfed from mothers who provide this amount of EFA that feed off of fish consistantly have higher intellegence scores? The brain is mostly made of DHA and in VERY important for proper brain development.)
McDougall in the same link quotes:
Most likely, the heart benefits of a Mediterranean diet are due to it being a nearly vegetarian diet. The Mediterranean diet is good in spite of the olive oil (Am J Clin Nutr 61:1321S, 1995).(*I now noticed the emphasis this article seems to put on the word NEARLY. Yes I know he’s quoting, but I do not think he is entirely listening)
(same link as above)
Body fat represents that saved “metabolic dollar” for the day when food becomes unavailable (which hasn’t happened lately). (*Sure, I agree if one needs to loose A LOT of weight. I have found however I was NOT getting enough fat from just unrefined veggies, fruits and grains. I didn’t know this was the problem. About every three weeks I would find myself binging on chocolate or doughnuts. I felt so guilty… any weight I gained didn’t last more than a day or two though, but I knew I shouldn’t do it. I thought I was just addicted to sugar. What I found out was that I was probably too low in fat! Now I AGREE with McDougall…. don’t run out and pile on the oil, but I now DISAGREE that eating too many fatty whole veggie foods like nuts should be avoided.)
McDougall in the same article again:
The safest and healthiest way to get your EFA is in their natural packages of starches, vegetables, and fruits. Here they are found in the correct amounts in protected environments surrounded by vitamins, minerals, fibers, antioxidants, and other phytochemicals to make them balanced nutrition. If you desire higher concentrations than are present in these foods then you will want to include more nuts, seeds, and soybean products in your diet. (*I AGREE) Remember, these are high fat foods and can contribute to obesity. (*Soybean, yes probably, nuts and seeds…. no way! I ‘ve seen studies on these myself and I have to object.) Research suggests that there may be a connection between frequent nut consumption and a reduced incidence of coronary heart disease (Nutr Rev 54:241, 1996).(*He is giving me WHIPLASH. How about you?)
Flaxseed (as a whole seed) is one of the richest sources of alpha linolenic acid and is also a good source of soluble fiber. Consumption of 50g (1 2/3 ounces) of raw, ground flaxseeds has been shown to increase the amount of w-3 EFA in the blood and tissues and to lower the cholesterol by 9% and LDL “bad” cholesterol by 18% (Br J Nutr 69:443, 1993). Blood sugar was also decreased. Even though the benefits of EFA as oils on cancer growth are questionable, the lignans present in flaxseed seem to have an antitumor effect when fed at the early stages of cancer promotion (Nutr Cancer 26:159, 1996). Plant foods are the only source of phytoestrogens, like isoflavones, coumestans, and lignans, that are believed to be beneficial for many problems, including menopausal symptoms, osteoporosis, cancer, and heart disease (Annu Rev Nutr 17:353, 1997).
(*One thing NOT being mentioned about the glorious flaxseed is that these wonderful lignans act like ESTROGENS in the body. Estrogen can give you a horomonal imbalance if you don’t need it. Too much estrogen accelerates aging… it realy aggravated the arthritis I developed while on this diet and ‘enhance’ my moodswings. In Canada they have found that pregnant women supplementing with small amounts of flaxseed to have a much larger risk of miscarriage. Chia ight be a better option as it is a lot lower than flax in lignans, but it is still considered very high compared to other foods and in my opinion should be taken very carefully. I DO think this diet led to the one and only miscarriage I had.)